The War on Christmas (1 Viewer)

Sniggles

ex nihilo
Sweet Jesus. It is that time of year for your double digit IQ Facebook friends to rant about how everyone is against the Christians.

I logged in to say hi to family and my newsfeed is full of people complaining about how there are no bible verses in their (grand)kids' public school Christmas play or how their kids cannot watch Christmas cartoons in class if they have religious quotes.

Am I the only one in this world that thinks that people should keep their worshipping to their private time and keep these divisive ideas out of the classroom? I would rather no religions be taught in public school. Save the Comparative Religion or the Theocratic Philosophy for post-secondary. You cannot teach one alone because it is discriminatory and leads to bullying. If you teach about all of the religions yet do not preach them whatsoever - it can lead to diversity or it can lead to bullying. Secular schooling is a must for any society that wants to progress.

Kids don't need to be indoctrinated in class by "faiths". Parents should do that on their own time if they must. People look at me crazy if I say this during Christmas time. To me, the faithful look far crazier when the lament how it is no longer the good ol'days when Christianity was shoved down everyone's throats. The most funny thing of all is that it is the religious who are doing the bullying while others among them are crying oppression.
 

Miz

mortality, ka, and the Tower
I think the major faiths and atheism all throw one thing out there that we all try and celebrate. I throw Santa Clause out there for Christmas. Can't wait to see my kids faces on Christmas morning.

I'm with ya Snigs. Keep religion out of school (unless it's high school history or of course you're at a religious private school.). I'm ok saying happy holidays and I am Christian. When my Jewish friend says Happy Hannukah I say Happy Hannukah. If an atheists says happy Wednesday then I'd say happy Wednesday. Religion should be taught on the parents free time, unless they're in a religious school.
 

Hassquatch

Slayer
It definitely shouldn't be taught but it shouldn't be all out banned from schools either. Any faith/religion. Moderation. I say this as anti-religious person. But bitching about no biblical verses in a fucking school play is fucking stupid.
 

Sniggles

ex nihilo
Moderation is vague and rife for abuse. The law states that public schools must be separate from church and state.

There are still many incidents of teachers forcing kids to pray and such because of their own beliefs. Parents should have full control of a child's spiritual upbringing. The state should play absolutely zero role in it.

Kids are worse than adult when it comes to focusing on differences and chastizing the different. This is why these laws were first enacted. Religion in schools creates division rather than unity.
 

cheeseflosser

Well-Known Member
That's stupid.

However, worship shouldn't be limited to only at home under the covers or in designated areas either.
 

Sniggles

ex nihilo
That's stupid.

However, worship shouldn't be limited to only at home under the covers or in designated areas either.
Anywhere but the public school system.

Worship to Allah, Moses, Yahweh, Jesus, Zeus, Odin, Ra, Vishnu on a beach or on public transportation or on court steps. I don't care.

Influencing other people's children in public schools to a belief system through negative feedback without parental consent is wrong.
 

cheeseflosser

Well-Known Member
I'm ok with the worship portion.

Learning and history cannot be taught without looking at the effect of religion on population growth and spread; especially in North America.

It's a slippery slope.
 

Sniggles

ex nihilo
I'm ok with the worship portion.

Learning and history cannot be taught without looking at the effect of religion on population growth and spread; especially in North America.

It's a slippery slope.
Teaching history is not the same as indoctrinating kids or spewing religiousity.

Do you need bible quotes to teach the Crusade?
 

SickNasty

Now that's a tasty burger.
What Sniggs said.

I love that the U.S. promotes freedom of religion, but I am on the side that feels that the government shouldn't promote any religion. No religion can be proven and there are so many to list that you can't realistically afford participation of every single religion one could practice into the regular goings of government.
 

Sniggles

ex nihilo
Should we teach religion in public schools? And if so, how?
The Dangers of Religious Instruction in Public Schools



When I heard the question, “Should we teach religion in public schools?” it made me cringe. Why? The United States is currently in the unenviable position of being near the bottom of the list of industrialized nations when it comes to teaching evolution in our public schools. As a consequence, at least half of adults outright embrace creationism and reject evolution. The rejection of reason, this religious revival we’re still in the midst of, is imperiling our international standing. How can a scientifically illiterate nation compete in global market? What does it mean for our future when half our population rejects fact and accepts fable?

It is in this context that we must consider whether typical public school teachers—particularly teachers at the lower level—can truly be trusted to be objective about “teaching” religion. The Freedom From Religion Foundation is continually contacted by students and parents who encounter teachers and principals who view their captive audience of students as a ripe mission field for recruitment. We handle more than 2,000 complaints a year by members of the public concerned about violations of the separation between church and state, and the vast majority of these concern violations in our public schools. We have to closely monitor our public schools to comply with more than 60 years of clear precedent barring prayer and devotional instruction in our public schools. We’ve recently had to complain in more than one state about kindergarteners being forced to pray by their teachers!

This year marks the 65th anniversary of the landmark McCollum v. Board of Education decision by the U.S. Supreme Court, barring religious instruction in our public schools. Jim McCollum was the only child in his elementary school not participating in religious classes. He was persecuted, and so was his family, for pointing out that it’s up to parents to instruct their children in religious beliefs. It’s also the 50th anniversary of Abington v. Schempp, barring bible-reading and recitation of the Lord’s Prayer. The plaintiffs in both these cases became pariahs for speaking out against religion in their public schools. Unfortunately, even today, students who stick up for separation of church and state still often become outcasts, as demonstrated by the mistreatment of high school student Jessica Ahlquist last year. After she won a federal ruling in Rhode Island removing a prayer banner from her public high school, Jessica at one point had to be accompanied to school by police escort. She retreated to private tutoring after repeated and vicious threats of violence and retribution. Religion in our publicschools creates divisiveness, and awareness of religious differences often builds walls between students.

In 1890, Catholic parents in my state of Wisconsin brought suit against the practice of devotional reading of the (Protestant) bible in the public schools. In concurring with a ruling that declared such bible reading unconstitutional, a Wisconsin State Supreme Court justice wisely noted:

There is no such source and cause of strife, quarrel, fights, malignant opposition, persecution, and war, and all evil in the state, as religion. Let it once enter our civil affairs, our government would soon be destroyed. Let it once enter our common schools, they would be destroyed.

Devotional instruction and religious exercises, of course, are very different from academic instruction—learning “about” religion. But the very way this question is posed, using the singular “religion,” rather than plural “religions,” reveals one of the innate dangers of such instruction. Supreme Court litigant Vashti McCollum often responded, in response to the question about teaching religion in the schools: If we teach religion, whose religion? It’s nearly always the dominant religion that is “taught,” with token references to other religions thrown in.

In the best of all possible public school environments, it would be ideal, of course, to include, at least at the high school level, a class on comparative religion. Most social studies and geography classes already study the religious affiliations of an area, and some of their identifying tenets. U.S. students should not grow up in ignorance of the world religions. But by the same token, nor should they grow up in ignorance of the world’s dead religions, or the fact that the nonreligious and nonadherents are among the largest segments of the world, when it comes to religious identification. Today in the United States fully one in five adults and one in three young persons identifies as “nonreligious.” If we’re going to teach religion in the public schools, we must “teach atheism” as well. Are Americans prepared to do that in a fair and neutral manner? Will teachers point out that the nonreligious segment is the second largest “denomination,” after Catholics in the United States? Ultimately, the object of any public school class, no matter the subject, ought to be to teach critical thinking skills. Are religionists willing to agree that children should be taught in public schools to question religion?

Perhaps it is religionists who should be wary of “teaching religion” in public schools. Atheists and freethinkers are often much better educated about religion and the bible than typical believers. The Pew Forum on Religion and Public life released a survey several years ago finding that when it comes to religious knowledge, atheists and agnostics score higher than any believers, who were often woefully ignorant of the tenets of their own religions. Members of the Freedom From Religion Foundation often tell us they came to their rejection of religion after reading the bible. A dispassionate and academic study of religions’ claims, as opposed to devotional memorization and parroting of the more palatable passages of the bible, almost inevitably will lead any thinker to realize: There are thousands of religions in the world, all claiming to be the One Truth Faith. They can’t all be right … Maybe, they’re all wrong!
 

chrisc

Ninja
People hate change
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What Sniggs said.

I love that the U.S. promotes freedom of religion, but I am on the side that feels that the government shouldn't promote any religion. No religion can be proven and there are so many to list that you can't realistically afford participation of every single religion one could practice into the regular goings of government.
I agree, but do you believe in freedom from religion as well? For instance, my dad works as a corrections officer. The prisons are going away from serving any type of pork because Muslims. Is that okay?
 

Sniggles

ex nihilo
I agree, but do you believe in freedom from religion as well? For instance, my dad works as a corrections officer. The prisons are going away from serving any type of pork because Muslims. Is that okay?
Unfortunately, the non-religious have to let the religious do their thing and ignore them. That is the only recourse. Can't argue with fervent "faith".

No, I do not agree with that pork ban whatsoever.

School is the same as prison, right? So if you have kids who are deathly allergic to peanuts in an elementary school class and ban them... it is fair. You don't want someone to die just from contact with trace amounts.

But... for the Muslims, they will not die if pork is cooked in the same kitchen as whatever they are eating. So, screw it. Plus, they are in prison for fuck's sakes.

If peanuts kill and the pork doesn't.... then one of them is bullshit. Cook the food separate or just don't feed the Muslim people pork and allow it for the rest. Sorry, but I am not going to go all PC for prisoners. Just give them a warning.

You just gotta envision a hunger strike being a cause of a pork ban.
 
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chrisc

Ninja
Unfortunately, the non-religious have to let the religious do their thing and ignore them. That is the only recourse.

No, I do not agree with that pork ban whatsoever.
I disagree we have to let the religious do their thing and ignore them, when it effects everyone. For example, if some kid wants to pray in school, go ahead. If the kid wants to pray and it holds up class for everyone, fuck off. If muslims choose to not eat pork, then fine it. But everyone shouldn't suffer for it.
 

Sniggles

ex nihilo
I disagree we have to let the religious do their thing and ignore them, when it effects everyone. For example, if some kid wants to pray in school, go ahead. If the kid wants to pray and it holds up class for everyone, fuck off. If muslims choose to not eat pork, then fine it. But everyone shouldn't suffer for it.
I agree. What I meant by that is that the atheists will get ganged on as discrimators or some ridiculous label. Of course, you ignore what does not inhibit you from your day. If someone is inhibiting you, you have every right to tell them to sod off.

Religious people should not be afforded special priviledge above the non-religious. We are equal even if your Holy Book says we aren't.
 

SickNasty

Now that's a tasty burger.
I agree, but do you believe in freedom from religion as well? For instance, my dad works as a corrections officer. The prisons are going away from serving any type of pork because Muslims. Is that okay?
I am in favor of freedom from religion, but not in a public non government funded setting. I would think that somewhere like a prison should make a reasonable accommodation for religious inmates.

I do think that stuff like the ten commandments being displayed on/within a courthouse or the like are promotions of a religion and shouldn't happen.
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I love pork bbq
That shit delicious.
 

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