The Trans Discussion

Neganomics

Your Trusted Web M.Deezy
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But that's just it, terms like "gay" and "straight" tend to refer to actual behaviors, and if one person were to claim the label of one while exhibiting all the identifiable characteristics of the other, people would balk at that. If Dan Bilzerian suddenly started "identifying as a gay man" without changing his lifestyle or behavior at all, people would give him seriously funny looks. "Gay" and "straight" mean pretty specific things, as do "man" and "woman" to the vast majority of the human population of this planet. The few folks who disagree with the latter meaning just seem to have a very hard time saying what those terms mean to them.

Now, again, none of this at all is to say that it's unacceptable or wrong for one person who have personality traits/fashion preferences/whatever that are outside the norm for their sex. I'm just trying to get the folks who think that females can be men and males can be women to come up with a coherent explanation of what that even means.
I agree with pretty much everything you've said on this subject, except for the part I bolded. Gay and straight tend to refer to identity more than behavior. It's a minor distinction but it does matter. For instance, in the medical field, we often state risk factors in a patient's note to convey to a future reader (most likely another healthcare provider) pieces of the basis of our diagnostic reasoning. And in patient notes, the words "gay" and "lesbian" mean virtually nothing. "Men who have sex with men", usually abbreviated "MSM" is the term we use instead of "gay", and it generally means we are considering the possibility that the patient may have a higher risk of contracting HIV and screening for HIV should be a part of their routine preventive care. "Gay" does not convey that idea, especially because someone can identify as "gay" and have sex with women for any number of reasons, or be completely celibate.

The reason the distinction is important is because identity and behavior can be at odds with each other. If someone identifies as a straight man, but has an isolated sexual experience with another man, reconciling that with his identity is a more difficult task than doing so would be if he comfortably identified as bisexual. Again, that has actual ramifications on what type of distress the person may deal with as a result of their behavior and identity.

I completely agree with what you have said about the fact that gender conveys important social information, but that statement is coming from the perspective of someone who identifies as a cis-gendered heterosexual male. And, before I lose you because of that statement, I want to point out that this perspective is a perfectly valid one, an idea to which many on the left do not subscribe. But if someone is a pansexual who sees gender as fluid, it is easy to understand why they don't place the same value on gender distinctions as you do. They do not see their gender or sexual orientation as barriers for them to engage in sexual or romantic behavior, so those distinctions are of little value from their perspective. The trouble that they run into is that the distinctions are VERY important to someone who does care about the gender or sexuality of a potential sexual or romantic partner.

So basically what I'm saying is that the strife that exists on this issue is probably mostly due to two or more wildly divergent value systems and ideologies, and until we understand what is important to each side and why, we are unlikely to make any reasonable headway any time soon.

I tend to think that societal norms should not be immune from occasional reexamination and criticism. But this one is tough because there does seem to be some denial of science coming from the "progressive" side in order to advance an agenda for seemingly no reason other than virtue signaling and casting a broader net for those who can claim social victimhood. Which is insulting to those who genuinely deal with gender identity issues. Is gender going to be as important to our society going forward as it has in the past? Who knows? That will be decided by the values of those who inherit our society, and right now a large portion of that demographic seems to be in favor of reevaluating.
 
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unforgivn

Nunquam Fidelis
Joined
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Location
Columbia, SC
I agree with pretty much everything you've said on this subject, except for the part I bolded. Gay and straight tend to refer to identity more than behavior. It's a minor distinction but it does matter. For instance, in the medical field, we often state risk factors in a patient's note to convey to a future reader (most likely another healthcare provider) pieces of the basis of our diagnostic reasoning. And in patient notes, the words "gay" and "lesbian" mean virtually nothing. "Men who have sex with men", usually abbreviated "MSM" is the term we use instead of "gay", and it generally means we are considering the possibility that the patient may have a higher risk of contracting HIV and screening for HIV should be a part of their routine preventive care. "Gay" does not convey that idea, especially because someone can identify as "gay" and have sex with women for any number of reasons, or be completely celibate.
The only gripe I have with this is that it's basically hair-splitting. The fact that certain terms aren't useful or informative in a medical context doesn't mean that they aren't in common speech.

The reason the distinction is important is because identity and behavior can be at odds with each other. If someone identifies as a straight man, but has an isolated sexual experience with another man, reconciling that with his identity is a more difficult task than doing so would be if he comfortably identified as bisexual. Again, that has actual ramifications on what type of distress the person may deal with as a result of their behavior and identity.
A person's self image and behavior can certainly be at odds, but that just makes the person's self image inaccurate. People are wrong about who they are all the time. Just look at our current President.

I completely agree with what you have said about the fact that gender conveys important social information, but that statement is coming from the perspective of someone who identifies as a cis-gendered heterosexual male. And, before I lose you because of that statement, I want to point out that this perspective is a perfectly valid one, an idea to which many on the left do not subscribe.
Social constructs are not subjective at the level of the individual. They aren't personal. They're about generally agreed-upon concepts and protocols, so what a particular individual thinks about them is irrelevant.

But if someone is a pansexual who sees gender as fluid, it is easy to understand why they don't place the same value on gender distinctions as you do. They do not see their gender or sexual orientation as barriers for them to engage in sexual or romantic behavior, so those distinctions are of little value from their perspective. The trouble that they run into is that the distinctions are VERY important to someone who does care about the gender or sexuality of a potential sexual or romantic partner.
If I were to present a hypothetical person to who rejected other social constructs like money, laws, or rights, would you find this person's perspectives relevant and worthy of social accommodation?

So basically what I'm saying is that the strife that exists on this issue is probably mostly due to two or more wildly divergent value systems and ideologies, and until we understand what is important to each side and why, we are unlikely to make any reasonable headway any time soon.
Gender isn't a product of consciously-held social values any more than language is. How gender and language manifest in a particular culture is certainly culturally driven, but social representations of sex (which, at its most basic level is what gender is) and syntactic communication almost certainly predate human civilization.

I tend to think that societal norms should not be immune from occasional reexamination and criticism. But this one is tough because there does seem to be some denial of science coming from the "progressive" side in order to advance an agenda for seemingly no reason other than virtue signaling and casting a broader net for those who can claim social victimhood. Which is insulting to those who genuinely deal with gender identity issues. Is gender going to be as important to our society going forward as it has in the past? Who knows? That will be decided by the values of those who inherit our society, and right now a large portion of that demographic seems to be in favor of reevaluating.
No arguments here, but I'll add that any worthwhile reevaluation requires an honest understanding of what's being reevaluated, and I think that's something that's sorely lacking.
 

ATJ-Lucko

Champ-Champ
Joined
Jan 17, 2009
Location
3rd Rock From the Sun
Am I wrong for not fully grasping the trans discussion and what is deemed controversial when it comes to trans folk?

I have no qualms calling someone who was born biologically a male/female whatever pronoun they wish to be addressed as and I will go along with calling them him/her etc. What confuses me is why trans folk get upset when they make a statement that alludes to the fact that they were not born the sex they wished to be addressed as and someone points out a scientific fact, example below.


When someone outright states that they can "get pregnant" that in of itself means that this person is a female, right? How is it offensive to point that out. To me it's the same when someone points out too trans men that feminism by its definition would cater towards women and issues that are unique to women.

The trans discussion for me stopped at people who wish to identify as....cool. Bob identifies as Barb and wants to be referenced as a she rather than he, no problem. But does 'Barb' now get to be included on issues that are unique to women (biologically) that Barb couldn't possibly understand? And vice versa?
In the past 3 years i have worked with 2 tans people, one a man who wants to be a women and a young girl who wants to be a boy,the latter one didn't seem to mind me calling him her, in my defense she really looks like a girl, she just looks like lesbian not a man.

But yeah you are right i know some others who take great offense to reality. Acknowledge what you truly are, even if you don't like it, you got to accept reality and everyone just playing pretend just to not hurt your feeling won't help you in the end.
 

Trodden

Currently running late for my funeral
Joined
Aug 18, 2014
Asking for respect is fine. Using the force of law to demand my respect is not.
that would suggest there are laws that could be used against you 'demanding respect'

those laws dont exist


there is no law saying you have to be nice to anyone


the only 'laws' out there have to do with employers

this is America, you dont have to respect anything
 

unforgivn

Nunquam Fidelis
Joined
Jul 1, 2009
Location
Columbia, SC
that would suggest there are laws that could be used against you 'demanding respect'

those laws dont exist


there is no law saying you have to be nice to anyone


the only 'laws' out there have to do with employers

this is America, you dont have to respect anything
I understand, but such laws are already being passed in Canada, and people are genuinely pushing for them here. I don't think they'll ultimately be successful, but only because I think people will get pissed enough to stop them before it starts.
[DOUBLEPOST=1516828587,1516827331][/DOUBLEPOST]New York City, for example, already has ordinances in place that require landlords and employers to refer to people using their desired pronouns (including made up ones) or risk fines potentially as high as $250k.
 

Trodden

Currently running late for my funeral
Joined
Aug 18, 2014
but such laws are already being passed in Canada

[DOUBLEPOST=1516828881,1516828704][/DOUBLEPOST]
already has ordinances in place that require landlords and employers
yeah, those are so they cant be unfairly disqualified from jobs or homes because they are trans

because those people are supposed to treat everyone equally based on qualifications, not qualifiers


but that still doesnt mean anything to the average person


if someone shouldnt be disqualified from a job or place to live based on religion, political affiliation, skin color, age, etc, why should them being trans matter or not?
 

unforgivn

Nunquam Fidelis
Joined
Jul 1, 2009
Location
Columbia, SC
yeah, those are so they cant be unfairly disqualified from jobs or homes because they are trans

because those people are supposed to treat everyone equally based on qualifications, not qualifiers


but that still doesnt mean anything to the average person


if someone shouldnt be disqualified from a job or place to live based on religion, political affiliation, skin color, age, etc, why should them being trans matter or not?
You didn't read my post if you think that law was about disqualifying people from jobs or whatnot.
 

unforgivn

Nunquam Fidelis
Joined
Jul 1, 2009
Location
Columbia, SC
I didnt say 'that law'

I was referring to laws protecting the lgbtqwerty people
I don't think anyone here has objected to those sorts of laws. Everyone deserves equal protection, and I don't know of anyone here who wants trans folks to be denied housing or gainful employment because of their identity.
 

Trodden

Currently running late for my funeral
Joined
Aug 18, 2014
just me

if youre not 'Metal', youre a second class citizen to me
 

GingerPowerBottom

mortality, ka, and the Tower
Joined
Nov 25, 2011
I offer my services!

We had a person who identified as a girl in my daughters soccer league. They are young, so I’m not concerned, but I’m not sold on it for middle school or high school. Especially for a sport like wrestling. I tape college sports for a school. I was taping soccer and you have to be ready for the change in speed and the trajectory of the ball form the woman’s to the men’s game. There is a difference.
 

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