The Cost of a Border Wall vs. the Cost of Illegal Immigration

Trodden

Currently running late for my funeral
Joined
Aug 18, 2014
The closest evidence of factual information would be an interview with someone who was privy to this, even that couldn't be considered fact, even if it were true.
and thats been the problems with most claims Ive come across

it can usually be traced back to one interview, but rarely hard data. So I have to discount it as an opinion not a fact

they may be out there, but in this day and age, in regards to all things politics, seeing is the only believing.......for me


faith is for church, facts are for state
 

SickNasty

Now that's a tasty burger.
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Re:SPCL

The mere fact that they classify Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Maajid Nawaz as "anti-Muslim extremists" demonstrates their bias and lack of credibility.
Source: https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/journalists-manual-field-guide-anti-muslim-extremists#nawaz
Maajid Nawaz

Maajid Nawaz is a British activist and part of the “ex-radical” circuit of former Islamists who use that experience to savage Islam. His story, which has been told repeatedly in the British and American press and in testimony to legislators as well, sounds compelling enough — Nawaz says he grew up being attacked by neo-Nazi skinheads in the United Kingdom, spent almost four years in an Egyptian prison after joining a supposedly nonviolent Islamist group, but had a change of heart while imprisoned and then returned to England to work against the radicalization of Muslims. But major elements of his story have been disputed by former friends, members of his family, fellow jihadists and journalists, and the evidence suggests that Nawaz is far more interested in self-promotion and money than in any particular ideological dispute. He told several different versions of his story, emphasizing that he was deradicalized while in Egypt — even though he in fact continued his Islamist agitation for months after returning. After starting the Quilliam Foundation, which he describes as an anti-extremism think tank, Nawaz sent a secret list to a top British security official that accused “peaceful Muslim groups, politicians, a television channel and a Scotland Yard unit of sharing the ideology of terrorists,” according to The Guardian. The same newspaper reported that in 2009, a Quilliam official said that “gathering intelligence on people not committing terrorist offences … is good and it is right,” discounting civil liberties concerns. His Quilliam Foundation received more than 1.25 million pounds from the British government, but the government eventually decided to stop funding it. One of Nawaz’s biggest purported coups was getting anti-Muslim extremist Tommy Robinson to quit as head of the violence-prone English Defence League, trumpeting his departure at a press conference. But Robinson later said Quilliam had paid him some 8,000 British pounds to allow Nawaz to take credit for what he already planned to do. Shortly afterward, Robinson returned to anti-Muslim agitation with other groups.

IN HIS OWN WORDS

  • In the list sent to a top British security official in 2010, headlined “Preventing Terrorism: Where Next for Britain?” Quilliam wrote, “The ideology of non-violent Islamists is broadly the same as that of violent Islamists; they disagree only on tactics.” An official with Scotland Yard’s Muslim Contact Unit told The Guardian that “[t]he list demonises a whole range of groups that in my experience have made valuable contributions to counter-terrorism.”

  • Ed Husain of the Quilliam Foundation said collecting intelligence on people not accused of crimes is “good and it is right” if the purpose is to “prevent people getting killed and committing terrorism,” according to an Oct. 16, 2009, story in The Guardian. He added that this kind of intelligence gathering outweighs civil liberties concerns. “That’s the name of the game,” he said. “It’s not about doing the right thing by Islamists or liberal do-gooders, it’s about creating a society where liberal do-gooders survive freely.” Nawaz backed up his colleague, saying, “Is it right to spy on Muslims? The hypocrisy of the pro-extremist, paralyzed guilt-driven reverse-racism brigade over the recent ‘spying’ controversy is repugnant to say the least. … [N]o one, least of all Quilliam, advocated a police state, or spying on Muslims en masse as a community.”

  • According to a Jan. 24, 2014, report in The Guardian, Nawaz tweeted out a cartoon of Jesus and Muhammad — despite the fact that many Muslims see it as blasphemous to draw Muhammad. He said that he wanted “to carve out a space to be heard without constantly fearing the blasphemy charge.”

  • In a March 23, 2015, opinion piece in The New York Times, Nawaz claimed that British academia was thick with Islamist radicals. “In fact,” he wrote, “academic institutions in Britain have been infiltrated for years by dangerous theocratic fantasists. I should know: I was one of them.”

Source: https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/journalists-manual-field-guide-anti-muslim-extremists#ali
Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a Somali-born activist who says she endured female genital mutilation and fled civil wars and an arranged marriage in Africa. She then moved to the Netherlands and became a parliamentarian for a time. But key parts of the story she told Dutch immigration authorities and the public there turned out to be false — she had never witnessed any civil war, attendees said she was at her wedding despite her claim to have not been present, and her husband paid her way to Europe and later granted her a divorce. Leaving the Netherlands after quitting its Parliament in disgrace, Hirsi Ali became a citizen of the United States, accepting an invitation to join the conservative American Enterprise Institute. Although she now positions herself as an ex-Muslim champion of women’s rights, her anti-Muslim rhetoric is remarkably toxic. In 2007, she told Reason magazine that the West should “defeat” Islam and that “we are war with Islam.” The same year, she said that Islam was “the new fascism” and a “destructive, nihilistic cult of death” in an interview with The London Evening Standard. In 2014, Brandeis University withdrew its offer of an honorary degree for her, saying that it had been unaware of her vitriolic attacks on Islam. While in the Netherlands, she wrote the script for a short and provocative film about women and Islam directed by the Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, who was murdered in the street by a jihadist a short time after its release. The murderer left a note threatening to also kill Hirsi Ali pinned to his victim’s body with a knife.

IN HER OWN WORDS

  • In her 2007 interview with The London Evening Standard, Hirsi Ali “advocated the closing of Islamic schools in the West and said that ‘violence is inherent in Islam,’” according to a later account in The New York Times.

  • In her 2007 Reason interview, she said, “There comes a moment when you crush your enemy” militarily, and added, “There is no moderate Islam. … [T]here’s really only one Islam, defined as submission to the will of God. There’s nothing moderate about it.” And she told her interviewer that it wasn’t only “radical Islam” that needed to be defeated, saying, “No. Islam, period. Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace.” She also told the journal that she had sought to “get rid of” all Islamic schools in the Netherlands while living there.

  • In a July 11, 2009, essay for the online World Post, Hirsi Ali criticized President Obama for denouncing “Islamic extremism without once associating Islam with extremism.” She threw cold water on the idea of the U.S cooperating with Muslims in order to battle jihadist extremism.

  • In an Aug. 18, 2010, Wall Street Journal op-ed, “How to Win the Clash of Civilizations,” Hirsi Ali said that Islam “is at war with America” and wrote that Western civilization “needs to be actively defended” against Islam.

  • Appearing on the March 23, 2015, edition of “The Daily Show,” she said, “If you look at 70% of the violence in the world today, Muslims are responsible.” Experts said the claim appeared to be bogus, and she later amended it to say 70% of fatalities “were in wars involving Muslims,” including civil wars.

Just providing what SPLC has on the two you mentioned.
 

Mr. Cornute

Prince of Saiyan...stuff.
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Location
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Don't want it, don't need it. But thanks for the offer.



Wrong. Try again.

The facts are out there if you dare to take the blinders off. Here are a few links that skew mostly conservative, but still provide an opposing viewpoint to what you are saying (if I had more time, I would take a deeper dive into this, but this is all I had time for).

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/penny-starr/
http://www.conservapedia.com/Southern_Poverty_Law_Center
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/southern-poverty-law-center/
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/343115/splc-and-slant-patrick-brennan

I'm not saying you're completely wrong. What I'm saying is, if you think SPLC is not flawed or unbiased, which is all I was pointing to, then you are wrong.
Random observation:

Three out of the four sources you've listed above do not glean anything to your argument about SPLC bias outside of showing their own.
 

unforgivn

Nunquam Fidelis
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The stuff on Nawaz is only marginally objectionable at best, and Hirsi Ali doesn't say anything about Islam that you won't hear Western, ex-Christian atheists say about Christianity -- but since Islam is a minority religion in the West and most Muslims are non-white it's somehow hate speech.
 

Mr. Cornute

Prince of Saiyan...stuff.
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Location
Ohio
(Illegal) Immigrants / undocumented immigrants aren't stealing or obtaining resources American citizens should have access too. (Illegal) Immigrants / undocumented immigrants don't have access to government aide as a citizen or legal resident would, contrary to popular belief. They do on the other hand have access to faith based and non-profit services that are not related to government aide. There are groups which service illegal immigrants in this country, but this isn't someone who isn't supposed to be here taking money from someone who is (welfare/food stamps for instance). Can someone who is here illegally obtain food stamps? Yes and No. Yes if they want to go through obtaining forged documents stating they belong here. The no comes in as most are unwilling to do so because that puts them in direct contact with people who would then report them and put them at risk of being deported.

I'm fairly certain many agree that people who travel to the United States illegally are doing so to escape the life they have in their place of birth and to create a better life for themselves and their families here in the country.
In knowing that we also have to realize that if there were not jobs available for people who were here illegally many would forego the trip as it wouldn't lead to a 'better life'.

Want to cure illegal immigration, penalize people who knowingly hire illegal immigrants with a massive fine...say $250,000 per illegal immigrant/undocumented immigrant.
That would immediately diminish almost all illegal immigration in this country, it would also cause food prices to soar due to the price needed to pay Americans / legal residents OR potentially cause food shortages as it would then leave a vacuum of open jobs which wages are extremely low to begin with.
We also would need to do something to people who overstay their visa's, which also is a factor in illegal immigration (this part gets ignored because overstaying of visa's isn't something that happens as often from countries south of the United States border and is more common from people who arrive from overseas (see Europe).

You know who is against putting the onus on the people that hire illegal immigrants to perform various labors in the country, business folk who hire them ie many of the current cabinet members.

If you aren't willing to start there you aren't having a serious discussion about illegal immigration.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/…/illegal-immigrants-who-ov…/
http://www.pewresearch.org/…/homeland-security-produces-fi…/
http://www.usatoday.com/…/immigration-visa-overst…/79026708/
http://money.cnn.com/…/11/20/news/economy/immigration-myths/
http://www.politifact.com/…/tom-delay-says-most-illegal-im…/
http://www.politifact.com/…/ten-illegal-alien-facts-truth-…/
 

unforgivn

Nunquam Fidelis
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Location
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Increased cost of labor and potential labor shortages are consequences that any solution to illegal immigration will have to grapple with -- no matter how severe or humane the plan. It's simply unavoidable.
 

Mr. Cornute

Prince of Saiyan...stuff.
Joined
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Location
Ohio
Increased cost of labor and potential labor shortages are consequences that any solution to illegal immigration will have to grapple with -- no matter how severe or humane the plan. It's simply unavoidable.
Absolutely.
 

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