The Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Thread

Anchorpunch

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Seems like a hill manufactured by the right from all the evidence I've seen—a convenient, if illegitimate, boogeyman.

Had to go back to read your article, sorry, I missed it the first time. It's good. I hope she, if she wants to use the label, works hard to define it. It's an uphill battle with a lot of independents and I don't know what she gets out of this. But whatevs.
 

Bran

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Decimation means to execute 10% of a nation’s population. I’ve heard that word probably thousands of times in my life and never once heard it used that way. But 100% of the time I hear someone use that word, I know exactly what they mean and so does everyone else.
 

Anchorpunch

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Please link where she declares she is a socialist (by your definitions) intent on seizing the means of production. Also, totally bizarre that raising 2 million for Texans in the midst of a crisis becomes this conversation. And even more hilarious that it is termed "poor political leadership" in the context of Cruz and Abbot. Kind of resembles a classic Republican bait and switch, no?
Hope my prior post clarifies the definition issue. But otherwise, isn't this a conversations about why @Clark Kent should give her a chance? We're discussing the pros and cons of AOC as a political leader. The only con presented was by me, but I stand by both it and the pros that I presented (and would include her compassion in that).
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I do. I completely understand your point.

I’m just saying that she has been upfront and detailed enough about her stances for people to see that there are productive ways around the literal definition of full-blown socialism as it pertains to policy change. At some point the onus is on the public to understand that.
Always love discussing with you. I guess my suggestion would be "the public is both busy and stupid, feed them in their own language." But otherwise I completely get what you're saying.
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@Poindexter wouldn't the Chappo guys call themselves Democratic Socialists? Because they explicitly believe in seizing the means of production.
 

Bran

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Hope my prior post clarifies the definition issue. But otherwise, isn't this a conversations about why @Clark Kent should give her a chance? We're discussing the pros and cons of AOC as a political leader. The only con presented was by me, but I stand by both it and the pros that I presented (and would include her compassion in that).
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Always love discussing with you. I guess my suggestion would be "the public is both busy and stupid, feed them in their own language." But otherwise I completely get what you're saying.
I don’t know that anyone here was trying to sell her to Clark. He just called her sneaky and that’s one of the least accurate words I would use to describe her, since I feel like she’s incredibly vocal about every one of her beliefs, whether you agree with them or not. Then you started an argument about the one thing I’ve never heard her say while she’s trying to save lives in Texas and Republicans are blaming her green new deal for the problem in the first place.
 

Anchorpunch

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I don’t know that anyone here was trying to sell her to Clark. He just called her sneaky and that’s one of the least accurate words I would use to describe her, since I feel like she’s incredibly vocal about every one of her beliefs, whether you agree with them or not. Then you started an argument about the one thing I’ve never heard her say while she’s trying to save lives in Texas and Republicans are blaming her green new deal for the problem in the first place.
If you read my post, I was trying to respond explicitly to Clark about why, and under what conditions, he should give her a shot. This thread is about her, not Texas.
 

disposableassassin

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I was a left leaning centrist before trump now I am more of a leftist with some centrist thinking still intact. I like what I have seen of AOC though admittedly I have not followed her every political move. She has that up-frontness that everyone is referring to and I find that refreshing on the political landscape.

That is just my two cents. Also, fuck Texas and Ted Cruz should be tried and sentenced for sedition if we have given up on trying him for the zodiac murders he committed.
 

Bran

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If you read my post, I was trying to respond explicitly to Clark about why, and under what conditions, he should give her a shot. This thread is about her, not Texas.
I know, but we weren’t trying to say he should like her, we were saying she’s clearly not sneaky. You agreed with this, then said you don’t like her, which is fine, but you then described something I’ve never once heard her say or claim to be about as your primary reason. And you keep avoiding bringing up a single example of her believing or talking about outside of a definition you had to blow the dust off of to recite
 

Anchorpunch

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I know, but we weren’t trying to say he should like her, we were saying she’s clearly not sneaky. You agreed with this, then said you don’t like her, which is fine, but you then described something I’ve never once heard her say or claim to be about as your primary reason. And you keep avoiding bringing up a single example of her believing or talking about outside of a definition you had to blow the dust off of to recite
Wait, what? Honest question, when you hear socialist, what do you think of? Maybe you don't have the associations I do. But I was being genuine, not blowing dust of books.
 

Bran

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Wait, what? Honest question, when you hear socialist, what do you think of? Maybe you don't have the associations I do. But I was being genuine, not blowing dust of books.
I’m not saying that what you’re describing is never accurate, but like I’ve been saying from the beginning, the word socialist has gotten a lot more broad in definition over the years and I think it’s silly at best to applaud AOC for being completely transparent in one sentence and then criticizing her for something she’s never said(to my knowledge) in the next.
 

Anchorpunch

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I’m not saying that what you’re describing is never accurate, but like I’ve been saying from the beginning, the word socialist has gotten a lot more broad in definition over the years and I think it’s silly at best to applaud AOC for being completely transparent in one sentence and then criticizing her for something she’s never said(to my knowledge) in the next.
I think our disagreement is in how literally to take her statement of being a democratic socialist and how much you apply other democratic socialists who do believe in seizing the means of production to that label.

I know both podcasts and people in my real life who label themselves as democratic socialists and believe the government should seize the means of production. Can you at least understand why I'm confused about AOC?

Like socialism is only different from capitalism for who owns the means of production.
 

Bran

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I think our disagreement is in how literally to take her statement of being a democratic socialist and how much you apply other democratic socialists who do believe in seizing the means of production to that label.

I know both podcasts and people in my real life who label themselves as democratic socialists and believe the government should seize the means of production. Can you at least understand why I'm confused about AOC?

Like socialism is only different from capitalism for who owns the means of production.
I can understand some confusion, but again, degrees. And if you can’t provide one example of her asking, demanding or suggesting what you’re saying her ultimate goal is outside of calling herself a socialist, then I think you should stop saying that about her.
 

disposableassassin

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I think our disagreement is in how literally to take her statement of being a democratic socialist and how much you apply other democratic socialists who do believe in seizing the means of production to that label.

I know both podcasts and people in my real life who label themselves as democratic socialists and believe the government should seize the means of production. Can you at least understand why I'm confused about AOC?

Like socialism is only different from capitalism for who owns the means of production.
Is it possible in your opinion to call yourself a socialist without adhering to 100% of socialist ideals? I personally feel like there is plenty of wiggle room in the definition for someone to adopt the moniker without agreeing with every single hardcore sentiment.
 

Bran

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Is it possible in your opinion to call yourself a socialist without adhering to 100% of socialist ideals? I personally feel like there is plenty of wiggle room in the definition for someone to adopt the moniker without agreeing with every single hardcore sentiment.
In a world with pro-choice catholics and Jews for Jesus, yeah, I think there’s definitely wiggle room.
 

Anchorpunch

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Is it possible in your opinion to call yourself a socialist without adhering to 100% of socialist ideals? I personally feel like there is plenty of wiggle room in the definition for someone to adopt the moniker without agreeing with every single hardcore sentiment.
So that's earnestly what I'm trying to solicit. My understanding, and I"m probably wrong because I am not looking this up, is that capitalism says people have property rights. Socialism says people have property rights over everything other than the means of production.

What I struggle with is what the "wiggling" really means. Honestly curious about your thoughts here.
 

Bran

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So that's earnestly what I'm trying to solicit. My understanding, and I"m probably wrong because I am not looking this up, is that capitalism says people have property rights. Socialism says people have property rights over everything other than the means of production.

What I struggle with is what the "wiggling" really means. Honestly curious about your thoughts here.
It’s my understanding that public schools are socialist infrastructures, but you wouldn’t say every or even most countries with public schools are socialist countries. I think you can call yourself a socialist because your core beliefs are socialist, like healthcare, education, etc. So if it’s your goal to socialize certain things, then it’s entirely fair to call yourself a socialist
 

disposableassassin

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So that's earnestly what I'm trying to solicit. My understanding, and I"m probably wrong because I am not looking this up, is that capitalism says people have property rights. Socialism says people have property rights over everything other than the means of production.

What I struggle with is what the "wiggling" really means. Honestly curious about your thoughts here.
I'm purely being speculative and trying to establish an example of the possibility that someone might personally define socialism. Personally I do not know every tenet in regards to socialism and I am not sure in what way AOC defines her political beliefs. I'm speaking purely on conjecture. Is there not a way to be a socialist without, say, agreeing with every word Bernie says?
 

Anchorpunch

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It’s my understanding that public schools are socialist infrastructures, but you wouldn’t say every or even most countries with public schools are socialist countries. I think you can call yourself a socialist because your core beliefs are socialist, like healthcare, education, etc. So if it’s your goal to socialize certain things, then it’s entirely fair to call yourself a socialist
So, and I'm sincerely not trying to be a pain in the ass, but that's part of what confuses me as my understanding is that the whole point is that if the government provides a service, then that is still capitalist. It would only be socialist if the government prevented the creation of private schools.
 

Clark Kent

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I didn’t say she was untrustworthy or anything. She just got the face of a crazy woman. but then again a crazy woman would stab you in the front too they don’t care.

at first I didn’t like her because I thought she was a moron. but I realized I think a lot of that was just nerves from being in the spot light and things like that. I no longer think that about her.

she has don’t a lot for a lot of people but she still looks crazy ass hell. Maybe that will make her way more interesting.
 

Anchorpunch

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I'm purely being speculative and trying to establish an example of the possibility that someone might personally define socialism. Personally I do not know every tenet in regards to socialism and I am not sure in what way AOC defines her political beliefs. I'm speaking purely on conjecture. Is there not a way to be a socialist without, say, agreeing with every word Bernie says?
So, and I know this is only a half response so excuse me, but I think the issue is that: The definition of socialism is no longer what it used to be, but doesn't yet have a coherent, singular definition.
 

Anchorpunch

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I didn’t say she was untrustworthy or anything. She just got the face of a crazy woman. but then again a crazy woman would stab you in the front too they don’t care.

at first I didn’t like her because I thought she was a moron. but I realized I think a lot of that was just nerves from being in the spot light and things like that. I no longer think that about her.

she has don’t a lot for a lot of people but she still looks crazy ass hell. Maybe that will make her way more interesting.
Can we make a podcast where you react to politicians faces???? Or at least a thread here?

Fuck it, I'll make the thread.
 

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