WWE (SPOILERS)

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by TriangleSmoke, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. Dimson

    Dimson Your tears don't fall...

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  2. Fedorlei Gomipierre

    Fedorlei Gomipierre The IQ Poster Site Donor

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    OK, so in retrospect, this might actually have been one of the most overlooked, pivotal missteps in modern pro wrestling and could be a masterclass in how Hogan fucked up WWF long before the steroids trial and his sabotaging of top guys like Warrior and Bret.
     
  3. TriangleSmoke

    TriangleSmoke Motherfucker of the Century Site Donor

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    Really interesting Jericho "news" and some Rumble rumors. The Rumble rumors are nothing you all haven't already suspected or that we haven't already discussed, but interesting nonetheless. Also more confirmation of Vince being out of touch, but that's nothing new.

    Show Spoiler

    - No decision has been made yet on the winner of the men's Royal Rumble, but the four being most considered by Vince McMahon are John Cena, Finn Balor, Shinsuke Nakaura and Roman Reigns. Cena is Vince's #1 choice at this point and Balor is the dark horse. Even though Brock Lesnar vs. Roman Reigns for the Universal title is still the plan for WrestleMania, Reigns isn't Vince's favorite to win the Rumble because Vince is afraid that the audience resentment of Reigns needs more time to be repaired before it's made crystal clear that he's headlining WrestleMania.

    The hope is that winning Elimination Chamber instead of the Royal Rumble gives WWE a little more precious time to continue to rehab Reigns in the eyes of the fans, something that has been working slowly but surely since the reunion of the Shield.

    - Chris Jericho has a lot of buzz right now between his big angle in New Japan Pro Wrestling and his rock band Fozzy having a smash hit on rock radio stations. There's been speculation about how soon he would return to WWE and while Vince McMahon has been impressed by the level of attention Jericho has garnered recently, McMahon remains insistent that if Jericho returned to WWE, he would have to sign a contract of a more traditional length instead of some of the three or six month deals he's signed.

    Jericho is often very coy about his plans, but he has confided in close friends that he's fascinated with the idea of eventually opening his own wrestling promotion. After WWE refused to cooperate with the wrestling card he was putting together for his cruise next year, Jericho was left with no choice but to look elsewhere. He struck a deal with ROH for the 2018 cruise because he didn't feel there was enough time to put something together on his own, but with hopes of making the cruise an annual event, he's begun exploring the viability of putting together his own promotion that could supply the wrestling for the cruises in future years, but also run shows for other special events as well.

    This is in the very early stages and there are no concrete plans. He could also use this as leverage to get a better deal with WWE if he ever returns, but Jericho is looking to be very ambitious going forward and the idea of opening his own promotion is something he is definitely thinking about.
     
  4. Fedorlei Gomipierre

    Fedorlei Gomipierre The IQ Poster Site Donor

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    Masato Tanaka still putting out bangers at 44 after 25 years of ridiculous levels of damage from working the FMW hardcore-style and not being a corpse is always going to be insanely impressive.


    Also, totally awesome to see All Japan seeing a massive growth in their attendance this past year and getting raves for big matches like the new one with Joe Doering and Zeus. Their product is hoss-ier and stiff AF for sure and they're getting NJPW talent like Nagata and Kojima since New Japan is crowded at the top, but fucking Kento Miyahara is scary awesome and they've got a really nice upper card with Jun, Suwama and freelancers like Kea, Sekimoto and Okabayashi, which makes for really stellar top of the card matches. Lotta room to build and good potential cross-over matches to give variety to some of those NJPW big cards and G1s with the expanded fields.

    NJPW is streets ahead of everybody else when it comes to dollars earned and seats filled, but there's merit to the "rising tide lifts all boats" ideology when it comes to pro wrestling getting hot. NOAH has the deal with TNA(which has pros and cons) but still has a bunch of top level studs in Nakajima, Marufuji, Kitamiya and Shiozaki(plus Kenoh was just crowned the new GHC champ, so we'll see how he does) who can go at the elite level and obviously DDT and Big Japan have their niche.

    And every company has its top level "ace" or two(even fledgling guys like Zero1 and Muto's Wrestle1), who are so impressively trained that when you watch their main event matches, even in a vacuum, you get flooded with how "great" their fundamentals are and how there's close to a dozen guys that could walk into a feud with say, Okada, and do a program with him on a freelance basis and no doubt have a five star classic. And on top of that, all of these places are operating dojos where they're churning out several high-ceiling talents every year, who are raised in the strong style fundamentals and once given time to develop, make the future look even better since you can replenish talent.

    It's a really awesome sign and a marked improvement from a few years back when everybody was dead(didn't help that NOAH never replaced their aging stars and All Japan was a political blackhole with Muto running it) and even New Japan was on shaky ground due to Inoki and all that goofy shit that nearly killed their business. It's just really promising and doubly cool.

    End POSITIVE rant lol.
    --- Post Added -- Jan 13, 2018, ---
    FWIW, I still think the Rumble finish will ultimately play into the WM SD! title match that I'm feeling will come off like a make-good/placation for the hardcores since Roman/Brock is gonna close the show, and they're just so optics focused and in desperate need for a PR win, I think they'd be idiots to not give Nak the shot and see if his charisma can make a difference with a run at the top and something fresh and new and different.

    On Jericho, Vince totally fucked up by being bullish about letting the NXT talent work that Jericho cruise and business-wise, it's biting him in the ass since Jericho is hustling and booking himself out as a pro wrestler and isn't confined and is giving pub to guys non-WWE fans would never otherwise know about- ALL OF WHICH WOULD'VE BEEN AVOIDED IF VINCE JUST PLAYED NICE WITH OTHERS AND WASN'T A LOON! Jericho's doing the Naito match for sure, so he isn't about to show up on RAW exclusively to ostensibly, eat a pedigree and get browbeaten and his balls ripped off by Steph(since once they resign you, they have to put you in your place for getting over on your own elsewhere- see Punk, Sting).

    Soooooo I'm guessing they'll need a kings ransom to get him back and even still, his outside interests and opportunities are his priority since they provide too much upside for reinvention and relevancy than whatever WWE would remotely offer outside of money, which Jericho already has saved and can now go about doing things "his way".

    I think Jericho is being shrewd AF with how he's handling this because he's 100% past his physical prime and is relying on his name and psychology and the athleticism of his opponents. Working within the WWE match layout restrictions, he's got a low ceiling since guys like Steen and Zayn and Ambrose and Rollins are job scared and won't be able to "go" 100% like they do outside of the micromanaged bubble, so if he's not going to be carried AND he's going to be forced to work WWE's scripted, segmented TV format with all of their buzzwords and backwards, inorganic booking, the 2018 Chris Jericho ends up looking like a washed-up upper-midcarder who isn't on Hunter's level and is booked in entertaining programs with low ceilings do to all of the WWE-isms.

    But if he works New Japan, he can work top level guys like Tana, Okada, Naito, Kenny, Ishii, Ibushi and even the JrHWs and have bangers because they'll be the elite-level athletes and he'll be the mastermind and they'll be able to uncork classics and it makes the perception of 2018 Jericho seem a shitload more important and "top guy-ish" than if he's working the WWE-style where they'll nutcut him.
     
  5. Kevo

    Kevo SMOKE BOMB!

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    So, a better version of what Cody is trying to do
     
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  6. Fedorlei Gomipierre

    Fedorlei Gomipierre The IQ Poster Site Donor

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    Absolutely.

    I like Cody but have time and again seen how he vastly overestimates his in-ring and promo talents and his relative "star power" just because he was on WWE TV for a decade and has a famous name, whereas Jericho is a minted "Attitude Era" top star with so much top level exposure, that the perception from jump is that he's "special" and there's massive equity in that.

    Basically, Cody has diluted himself into believing WWE held him down from being at a legit main event, top guy-level and from that, believes he's actually on the same level in-ring as the top guys in New Japan and deserves one of those spots. Cody only "outworks" guys when it comes to PR, hustle and work ethic regarding presentation as an act, but once the bell rings, he's simply not at their level in any capacity. His ROH World Title defenses have been ROUGH ways to close out PPVs since they don't feel like a big deal and that's on him.

    Flipside, Jericho is a bigger "name" than all of them combined, so these aces get the tradeoff of carrying a "past his prime" superstar but also get the "rub" by getting exposure of being in the ring with Jericho and getting the hype and pub that follows him. Jericho carries his part of the load by lending his name value and credibility and is a master storyteller, so he can harness these elite workers' strengths and elevate the match quality with his mind and everybody wins. You can't say the same thing about Tana and Ibushi working Cody on the big shows lol

    Cody's biggest success was latching onto "The Elite" since it made him one of the cool kids and he's got the drive and business acumen to put the hours in, but it's not as though Cody is the reason for the ROH attendance increase(Bucks) or the Long Beach NJPW attendance and it's not like he set the world on fire for TNA when he did his shots, or that ROH PPVs are up since he was champ or that New Japan sees him as an elite gaijin and are pushing him as a main eventer.

    I think there was a time after Dusty died when WWE could've made Cody into a super hot babyface challenger with a legitimate story arc that maybe could've gotten him to a main event level based on his overall upside. But from everything I've seen, I kind feel as though WWE got it right with slotting him as an IC title guy and basically told him where they had his ceiling.
     
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  7. Dimson

    Dimson Your tears don't fall...

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    Potential career ender chair shot by Hogan!
     
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  8. Kevo

    Kevo SMOKE BOMB!

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    He's always sucked at chair shots
     
  9. Dimson

    Dimson Your tears don't fall...

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  10. Fedorlei Gomipierre

    Fedorlei Gomipierre The IQ Poster Site Donor

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    This set of TNA tapings sound pretty interesting. It's not going to make a lick of difference mind you, since it's still TNA and they're wrestling purgatory and you can't change the stigma associated with them as such a damaged brand.

    But, I'm a huge Jim Mitchell mark and he's somebody who no company has ever used properly given his talents, so I'm happy. And D'Amore is the only booker in TNA history to have had actual booking success that moved numbers in the positive, so I'll wait and see but unless they start booking a PWG/Lucha Underground hybrid that feels like something totally "new" to a mass audience, it's good money after bad still.
     
  11. Bran

    Bran The wolf dead.

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    What's Jim Mitchell doing there?

    And I know you hate the greatness that was ECW, but I thought he was pretty fantastic as the Sinister Minister there, managing Whipreck and Tajiri in the Unholy Alliance
     
  12. Kevo

    Kevo SMOKE BOMB!

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  13. Dimson

    Dimson Your tears don't fall...

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  14. Fedorlei Gomipierre

    Fedorlei Gomipierre The IQ Poster Site Donor

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    They've brought "Father Jim" back to manage Abyss, so that'll at least make for interesting promos now that Dan Lambert is gone (but damn he was absolutely awesome).

    ECW, man... Sinister Minister was great and I loved his schtick with Mikey and Tajiri because he's a fire promo and they had some great matches for "ECW-style" with Guido/Mamaluke and Dreamer/Lynn, but as with the problem with EVERYTHING in ECW, it was a supernova of hot-shotting that was so thoroughly unsustainable, Heyman couldn't even keep it afloat for a third of the time TNA's been around. Heyman inoculated that customer base to every parlour trick in the book so bloody quickly, to where you had these masochists scarring each other to fans yawning without affect and while everybody looks back with nostalgia goggles about ECW now, I cannot overstate the magnitude to which Heyman's tenure there was overrated, both from a creative and business POV.

    All Heyman did was book an X-rated territory with 90% ripped-off old school angles and gimmicks from the '70s and '80s, fused with the garbage style that got over in the various garbage Japanese promotions. That's not even a knock on his talents as a performer or as a "mind" per se, because he was brilliant to find a niche and create a counterculture product that resonated with a cult audience. In a way, he's much like the Tarantino of pro wrestling in that his gifts and creative genius cannot be traced back to being wholly original from the outset, but rather a genius at creating a collage of others' various works and putting an alternative spin on them into some form of postmodern remix that plays as something new and different for the uninitiated.
     
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  15. disposableassassin

    disposableassassin I'd like to introduce you to my replacement Site Donor

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    ******
     
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  16. Fedorlei Gomipierre

    Fedorlei Gomipierre The IQ Poster Site Donor

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    One can find a lot to love in QT's movies but goddamn it's not a coincidence that his best written script was directed by somebody else (Tony Scott, True Romance) and his best directed effort was written by somebody else (Elmore Leonard, Rum Punch/Jackie Brown). Everything since Jackie has been a self-indulgent mixtape of his favourite genres and soooooo much of what people see as being this awesome "Tarantino" originality is just him counterfeiting old Japanese and Italian genre movies shot-for-shot, that only serious film geeks have seen and know the score but the masses see him as this original voice.
    --- Post Added -- Jan 14, 2018, ---
    The year is young, but I'm all in...on this beeing the creepiest tweet of 2018:
     
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  17. disposableassassin

    disposableassassin I'd like to introduce you to my replacement Site Donor

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    People always look at me funny when I say Jackie Brown is hands down my favorite Tarantino flick.

    Also, the comments on that tweet are pretty great.
     
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  18. Fedorlei Gomipierre

    Fedorlei Gomipierre The IQ Poster Site Donor

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    Jesus aren't they lol.

    I got both JR's book and the new Pillman book for Xmas and while I wasn't expecting much out of JR's, holy shit was it pretty much worthless and devoid of any insight or valuable information. I understand JR being political and not burying Vince or "the company" outright to any extent, but of all the people in wrestling today that could actually write a GREAT book based off of knowing where all of the bodies are buried and the backstage drama that happened, it's Patterson and JR and both wrote books that came in under 400 pages, which IMO, isn't half of what they should've been.

    I've read every non-Russo pro wrestling book and I'd rank JR's up there with Bischoff's as one of the most bland, shallow and uninteresting. The difference is that Bischoff didn't work for a fucking decade and a half under Bill Watts and another decade and a half under Vince McMahon in a top aid capacity and just doesn't touch upon anything worthwhile. These autobiographies by their very nature are usually self-serving so you keep an eye out for BS(like JR's take on the Brawl for All lol), but it would've been more worthwhile to read a goddamn transcript of JR's podcast antidotes to get better stories, since there's zilch here.
     
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  19. Dimson

    Dimson Your tears don't fall...

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    Sick ink.
     
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  20. Sakara=Excitement

    Sakara=Excitement Live.Love.Learn Site Donor

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    The kick that ended Paiges career. How many women has Sasha hurt?

     

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