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The Trans Discussion

Discussion in 'Politics and Religion' started by Mr. Cornute, Oct 31, 2017.

  1. kanobro

    kanobro My New Challenge Site Donor

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    what if you just called them Ed or Jim or Frank or whatever their name is?
     
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  2. Trodden

    Trodden The autumn air Thickly fills my lungs So sweetly

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    calling someone 'Ed' is offensive to retarded Canadians who cant pronounce 'eh'?

    calling someone 'Jim' is short for a 'rim-job' worker

    and calling someone 'Frank' is a pejorative for people who have an Al Franken fetish, otherwise know as the 'Frankers'


    you just tryn to spread the hate aint'cha

    I can respect that
     
    kanobro likes this.
  3. unforgivn

    unforgivn Nunquam Fidelis

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    That's not how language works, and it's not how identity works. Both of these are tacit agreements made among groups of people about how to interact, and they're constantly under renegotiation. In no case is either one defined subjectively by an individual and then everyone else is required to play along. Language relies on meanings of words being agreed upon mutually, so the idea that words can have different, valid meanings from individual to individual pretty much shits on the entire idea of linguistic communication. Identity, similarly, is a constant tug of war between how an individual wishes to present themselves versus how the people around them are willing to acknowledge them. At no point ever is your identity 100% definitively decided by you.

    So you're actually not even arguing in favor of transgender pronoun use here. You're actually arguing for the abolition of the entire concept of gender. That's fine, but you have to realize that 99% of human society (including almost all trans folk, as it happens) won't be keen on going along with that. Gender is a social construct that basically everyone finds has some sort of good social utility (it would never even have emerged if it didn't), and most people are going to be unwilling to give that up.
     
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  4. Peezy

    Peezy Voice of the people

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    Words matter. Biology matters. Science matters. If you are born with a Y chromosome you are a male. End of discussion. Me calling you a female because you want it that way does not make you a female. When I was 15 I wanted to be 21 so I could get drunk in a bar. Calling myself 21 didn't make me 21. This is no different.

    And get the fuck outta here with that gender is a social construct crap. It's biology. It's science. It's anatomy. It's the entire endocrine system in your body. Males and females are different, very different. It's not a social construct, it's a fact of nature.
     
  5. Trodden

    Trodden The autumn air Thickly fills my lungs So sweetly

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    nothing matters. you dont matter. I dont matter. matter doesnt matter. anti-matter is barely batter. truth doesnt matter. opinions dont matter. what does and doesnt matter doesnt matter

    so fuck everything and fuck you and fuck me and fuck all




    Im still OK with tacos though. they do kinda matter
     
  6. unforgivn

    unforgivn Nunquam Fidelis

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    Sex is biological. Gender is a social construct. If you disagree, then I'd love to see your argument for the biological basis for why women wear dresses or their hair long, why gender is expressed differently across different cultures, or why pink was a masculine color a couple centuries ago before mysteriously becoming feminine.

    What's significant, though, is that social constructs don't just arise out of thin air. They emerge because they're performing some function that society finds useful. That's where the gender activists' argument fails -- not in claiming that gender is a social construct (they're dead right on that), but in assuming that being a social construct means that it can be changed or ignored at will on an individual basis.
     
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  7. Peezy

    Peezy Voice of the people

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    Have you seen the inside of a vagina?
     
  8. 0mega1

    0mega1 Well-Known Member

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    Pink is my favorite color.
     
  9. unforgivn

    unforgivn Nunquam Fidelis

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    So you're implying that no one had seen the inside of a vag until a century ago? Did guys before that point all just go in blind?
     
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  10. Peezy

    Peezy Voice of the people

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    Have you never watched old tv shows? Everything was black and white back then.
     
  11. Trodden

    Trodden The autumn air Thickly fills my lungs So sweetly

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    what the fuck is wrong with you?

    even Archie Bunker was in color
     
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  12. Neganomics

    Neganomics I know nothing.

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    This is actually an excellent point.
     
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  13. Poindexter

    Poindexter Reputation: ∞ Staff Member

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    Perhaps unintentionally?
     
  14. Neganomics

    Neganomics I know nothing.

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    No, just ironically.
     
  15. Neganomics

    Neganomics I know nothing.

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    I agree with pretty much everything you've said on this subject, except for the part I bolded. Gay and straight tend to refer to identity more than behavior. It's a minor distinction but it does matter. For instance, in the medical field, we often state risk factors in a patient's note to convey to a future reader (most likely another healthcare provider) pieces of the basis of our diagnostic reasoning. And in patient notes, the words "gay" and "lesbian" mean virtually nothing. "Men who have sex with men", usually abbreviated "MSM" is the term we use instead of "gay", and it generally means we are considering the possibility that the patient may have a higher risk of contracting HIV and screening for HIV should be a part of their routine preventive care. "Gay" does not convey that idea, especially because someone can identify as "gay" and have sex with women for any number of reasons, or be completely celibate.

    The reason the distinction is important is because identity and behavior can be at odds with each other. If someone identifies as a straight man, but has an isolated sexual experience with another man, reconciling that with his identity is a more difficult task than doing so would be if he comfortably identified as bisexual. Again, that has actual ramifications on what type of distress the person may deal with as a result of their behavior and identity.

    I completely agree with what you have said about the fact that gender conveys important social information, but that statement is coming from the perspective of someone who identifies as a cis-gendered heterosexual male. And, before I lose you because of that statement, I want to point out that this perspective is a perfectly valid one, an idea to which many on the left do not subscribe. But if someone is a pansexual who sees gender as fluid, it is easy to understand why they don't place the same value on gender distinctions as you do. They do not see their gender or sexual orientation as barriers for them to engage in sexual or romantic behavior, so those distinctions are of little value from their perspective. The trouble that they run into is that the distinctions are VERY important to someone who does care about the gender or sexuality of a potential sexual or romantic partner.

    So basically what I'm saying is that the strife that exists on this issue is probably mostly due to two or more wildly divergent value systems and ideologies, and until we understand what is important to each side and why, we are unlikely to make any reasonable headway any time soon.

    I tend to think that societal norms should not be immune from occasional reexamination and criticism. But this one is tough because there does seem to be some denial of science coming from the "progressive" side in order to advance an agenda for seemingly no reason other than virtue signaling and casting a broader net for those who can claim social victimhood. Which is insulting to those who genuinely deal with gender identity issues. Is gender going to be as important to our society going forward as it has in the past? Who knows? That will be decided by the values of those who inherit our society, and right now a large portion of that demographic seems to be in favor of reevaluating.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
  16. unforgivn

    unforgivn Nunquam Fidelis

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    The only gripe I have with this is that it's basically hair-splitting. The fact that certain terms aren't useful or informative in a medical context doesn't mean that they aren't in common speech.

    A person's self image and behavior can certainly be at odds, but that just makes the person's self image inaccurate. People are wrong about who they are all the time. Just look at our current President.

    Social constructs are not subjective at the level of the individual. They aren't personal. They're about generally agreed-upon concepts and protocols, so what a particular individual thinks about them is irrelevant.

    If I were to present a hypothetical person to who rejected other social constructs like money, laws, or rights, would you find this person's perspectives relevant and worthy of social accommodation?

    Gender isn't a product of consciously-held social values any more than language is. How gender and language manifest in a particular culture is certainly culturally driven, but social representations of sex (which, at its most basic level is what gender is) and syntactic communication almost certainly predate human civilization.

    No arguments here, but I'll add that any worthwhile reevaluation requires an honest understanding of what's being reevaluated, and I think that's something that's sorely lacking.
     
  17. ATJ-Lucko

    ATJ-Lucko MMAtheist

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    In the past 3 years i have worked with 2 tans people, one a man who wants to be a women and a young girl who wants to be a boy,the latter one didn't seem to mind me calling him her, in my defense she really looks like a girl, she just looks like lesbian not a man.

    But yeah you are right i know some others who take great offense to reality. Acknowledge what you truly are, even if you don't like it, you got to accept reality and everyone just playing pretend just to not hurt your feeling won't help you in the end.
     
  18. Neganomics

    Neganomics I know nothing.

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    Not a lot of sunshine up in Canada, eh?
     
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  19. Peezy

    Peezy Voice of the people

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    You must work in the transportation industry.
     
  20. Thamob

    Thamob ISYMFS

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    I just don't get it. If it's not affecting yu personally why the hell make a fuss.
     

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