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Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by Poindexter, Jun 22, 2017.
Also why is that Lebron is chasing Jordan? Shouldn't he be chasing the real GOAT?
I’m not talking about your personal assessment, I’m talking about the majority perception. OKC was right behind Houston this season for odds to win the title after adding PG and the ghost of Carmelo Anthony. Curry, Harden, and AD would be the favorites. Just like the Heat were when they put LeBron, Wade, and Bosh together. They because the immediate odds on favorite in Vegas despite the fact that the Lakers still had their entire roster intact from back-to-back championships and Boston still had Garnett, Pierce, Ray, and Rondo that had just gone to seven games in the Finals the year before. So your theory about the cohesion of the team and would have fallen on deaf ears then, too.
LeBron, Wade, and Bosh were unproven and still favored over established championship teams because of how elite that trio was at the time.
And I don’t care if MJ didn’t have an Instagram account when he was a one-man pinball against the Detroit wrecking machine. He dealt with loads of criticism for media, fans, and his peers. The “selfish, degenerate gambling scoring champ who couldn’t win when it mattered, “his gambling debts got his father killed”, “his retirement and move to baseball was actually an NBA suspension”, “his flu game was a hangover.” Michael Jordan to this very day is still one of the most scrutinized athletes around and he’s almost fucking 60.
People trashed him while he was playing. People trashed him when Kobe was hitting his stride. People trash him now while LeBron is doing his thing. And people will trash him long after he’s gone. That is the price of greatness. People will always try to tear down the legend. Go one Twitter, Facebook, or Instagram and search “MJ” or “Jordan” and you’ll see for yourself.
For me, as a Lakers fan I distinctly remember Kobe getting a shit ton of heat because he played with Shaq so I always found this era of basketball weird lol, I wonder sometimes if Kobe wishes he were born a little later so he could play in the No defense era where the media doesn't come down as hard on you for not being the lone star on a team.
Kobe is doing a lot more good for his image now — by giving back to the game in a mentor capacity — than he ever did as the ruthless asshole on the court. He’ll be thought of differently in 10 years.
The media scrutiny for Kobe and Jordan as compared to LeBron is the difference between throwing a bullet and shooting it.
Jordan's father was murdered. Kobe had a rape accusation and a feud with the then biggest (literally and figuratively) star in the league. And it passed over cable and radio for a cycle. Then what? None of that lived in this media age. None of it currently lives in the media age. In any of the comparisons to Jordan or Kobe - neither the death or Jordan's father and his foray into baseball or Kobe's rape case are referenced.
How do you think Kobe would fair in the #MeToo era if that shit broke today? Has much room do you think Jordan would have gotten to transition to baseball in the wake of his Dad's death?
James hasn't had those storylines. They've had to be invented for the most part because media attention to James is lucrative. People love to like him and love to hate him. I think this is a point that will only be illustrated when his career is over and the next crop of NBA stars are tasked with carrying the identity of the league. James came in at a very "me" ball era of basketball that has thankfully eroded but now exists the dichotomy of having players take over games while making their teammates better regardless of composition, chemistry, talent, or skill. It's nonsense and been nonsense. The Warriors aren't an accidental team, they're a response to the Spurs first and LeBron second. The Spurs weren't an accidental team they were a response to the Heat who in turn were a response to Boston who in turn were a response to Kobe's Lakers and LeBron's Cavs.
But just because the cycle repeats doesn't mean it's always successful. Wasn't with the Lakers teammate. Wasn't in OKC. It may not be in Houston if this is a limitation of D'Antoni and his inability to get a team with great regular season success to the Finals. And consider the Warriors may have started a new cycle which is adding a MVP level player to an already established team. I would disagree to the end that adding talent to an established team is the same as compiling one. James going to Boston would be equivalent to what Durant did. James joining Leonard in the Spurs would also be the same in my eyes. When healthy that's player 1 and player 3 in the league for my money. James joining George in LA would not. That would be comical and unlikely to happen. The same would be true for the eventual mess that will become the 76ers.
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It's a different context. For his era, Kareem is arguably the greatest. He doesn't translate to today's game. Sure, you couldn't stop him offensively but who does he defend in the spread floor era? The likelihood of him also commanding 25-30 shots a game would also be low in a league that doesn't facilitate the traditional point guard.
His longevity would be diminished as well simply because he'd be a defensive liability with all the switching that goes on. Kareem slowed considerably in his later years, it's unlikely he'd of seen floor time in his early to mid 30's.
But in his era or in the era of the 90's, sure. He was the greatest. As much as I love Shaq, Kareem was simply more versatile. Same for Hakeem, Kareem gave you more options.
I can't pick him over Jordan however. Jordan's game translates to any era, any situation. Jordan would have to add the off the dribble three and he'd have to play combo guard. Not exactly an impossible feat. He could switch pretty much everything given the size of players today. He wouldn't be as effective a defender but on the right team he wouldn't have to be. You can't touch a dribbler, defense only resides in the post or paint and that's not where the game is played.
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All fair, and I agree on a lot of this especially about Kareem and Hakeem being more versatile than Shaq.. so speaking of different eras, what would your opinion be on Lebron playing against those 90s physical defenses, lately I been thinking about that since Lebron is an offensive juggernaut but it's no mystery that he's limited as far as offensive moves, Jordan pointed it out forever ago and Kobe recently drove the point home that he only goes left so what do you think about a guy like Lebron going up against the Rodman, Pippens, and Malones of the 90s offensively? I know he's still got like 60 lbs over all these guys (maybe more like 30 for Malone) but that's what has been intriguing me lately, honestly I feel like no one should be able to stop Lebron right now if he wanted to drive to the basket 100 times a game other than stamina but obviously back then post defense was much different.
I think LeBron would be a post player. I think his passing and transition game would be stronger, I think he'd be more of a 20 point a game player. Outside of Magic, there really weren't star point forwards in the 90s. Defensively he has the speed and length to guard 1-3. Guarding 4s and 5s would be different, he would be an effective double teamer but you wouldn't want him banging with 4s if you're expecting him to score 30.
Open court transition in a West coast offense. He'd of been deadly. The fact he has the speed to switch on 2 guards and hand check means you lose nothing on 1:1 matchups. But he wouldn't take 25 jumpshots a game, no way. He wouldn't be shooting 3s either. That would limit his ppg in the mid-range era. Plus teams had bodies to pack the paint limiting his drive but he's one of the best passers for any position to do it.
And the Sixers bounced Coloangelo.
Yeah I am a big Magic Johnson fan, but I think Lebron is probably the greatest passer of all time.
I actually think Bird was as good. Ironic that physically James moves like a prime Magic but to me he has the court vision of Bird.
Agreed, Bird's passing game and honestly his defense doesn't get talked about enough, seems like a lot of people only recognize him for his offense and even his offense kinda gets underrated a bit because sometimes he gets categorized as this catch and shoot guy when he really had a lot of offensive moves. But speaking of his catch and shoot game...
Can't we all just get along and agree that most of the players named are fucking amazing?
Who isn’t getting along? This is MMA Spot. It gets bloody sometimes.
I have no issue with either side of the discussion. I get the criticisms of LeBron, and many are warranted, but too many times for me it's forest for trees. I don't know how to properly convey that the dude shouldn't even be in these Finals but nature is taking its course regardless.
No amount of spin is gonna make me believe that Durant is the better all around player than James or LeBron needs to do more. And at the same time I don't think he eclipses Jordan as the greatest single player. I don't think Finals win/loss have to do with that so much as LeBron staying in the playoffs and breaking all the records for points, assists, games played, etc.
I'd like to see James be in contention for a title on a team built to his strengths but I'd also like to see the Warriors taken down a peg by someone in their own conference. And I'm ready for a team other than the Cavs to be in the Finals. I'd like that to be the Knicks ideally but I realize that's like saying I'd like to see Isreal and Iran patch up their differences.
It's possible over a long enough timeline, sure, but I don't think I have 10 to the 73rd power of patience.
I just mean in general. Facebook groups, Social media, media pundits, etc. Everyone wants to claim someone as the GOAT, which is hard to do due to different era's and the fact that it's a team game.
No amount of debate I've ever seen in my 35 years, especially in sports, has swayed a persons mind. If someone thinks Lebron is the GOAT, they'll always think that. If someone doesn't think that, they'll always think that.
The bar will always be moved and manipulated in someones favor.
I don't think anyone ever passes Jordan for the GOAT. His highlight reel is like watching the Harlem Globetrotters win championships. But I love watching Lebron play and take over. I love watching him carry a team. I'd like to see him get more rings before he retires because when he's gone, who knows when another generational talent like him come in and do what he's doing now.
Might come sooner than you may think if Zion Williamson lives up to his hype
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Also at the rates athletes are evolving (maybe it's steroids maybe it's just normal human evolution?) might not be that far-fetched to see more, and more guys with similar physical gifts to a Lebron James in the future.
The profitability of basketball in terms of longevity, branding, appeal, health, etc. is going to command the best athletes in team sports. You can even have a post-career playing overseas.
The skill the game is played with has taken a hit, but I think as the G league develops and possibly becomes a viable alternative to the college system, you can right that ship.
Malone was not smaller than James by any means
Ehhhh 6'9 265 at most? They are about the same size
I think Malone was the bigger man in terms of muscle mass but that’s just my opinion.