1. Nothing any good isn’t hard. Discuss: "UFC Fight Night 121: Werdum vs. Tybura" Live Discussion *Spoilers*. Prelims begin at 6:30 p.m. ET on Fight Pass.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Luck, bad if not good, will always be with us. The books are open. Get your bets in now for UFC Fight Night 121: Werdum vs. Tybura.
Dismiss Notice
Pick a peck of pickled pick 'ems: UFC Fight Night: Werdum vs. Tybura

The Climate thread

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussion' started by Trodden, Apr 22, 2015.

  1. Trodden

    Trodden The autumn air Thickly fills my lungs So sweetly

    Reputation:
    231,833,865
    http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/21/opinions/sutter-climate-two-degrees/index.html

    2 degrees: The most important number you've never heard of



    we're boned

    maybe going to Mars doesnt sound so crazy after all

     
  2. Hassquatch

    Hassquatch Slayer

    Reputation:
    29,554,564
    Ehh, I never bought into this Global Warming bullshit. Last two winters in the Northeast were terribly cold. Last summer was mild. We had about five warmer years. Before that, the winters were freaking cold. I haven't noticed anything out of the norm. I don't think anyone has. Until they read some article or play Nintendo with Al Gore.
     
  3. Trodden

    Trodden The autumn air Thickly fills my lungs So sweetly

    Reputation:
    231,833,865
    its already manifesting in several anomalies around the world

    just look at all the crazy shit going on in the pacific ocean on the west coast

    the droughts, etc. I just dont how anyone can call whats going on normal
     
  4. Neganomics

    Neganomics I know nothing.

    Reputation:
    38,005,031
    You seem to have confused climate with weather.
     
  5. kanobro

    kanobro My New Challenge Site Donor

    Reputation:
    196,387,393
    with the cold winters around here, I'm doing everything I can to speed up Global Warming.
     
  6. Neganomics

    Neganomics I know nothing.

    Reputation:
    38,005,031
    Do you guys want to learn about why "global warming" is a complete misnomer? And why "climate change" is a totally legitimate replacement term?

    Or are you all pretty much decided on your positions at this point? Because I think I can provide some compelling evidence.
     
  7. sourdough

    sourdough Sourdough Site Donor Asst. Bookie

    Reputation:
    152,238,907
    The winter here was too warm. I was hope it would be a lot colder.
    --- Post Added -- Apr 22, 2015, ---
    I always aprreciate your insight.
     
  8. Neganomics

    Neganomics I know nothing.

    Reputation:
    38,005,031
    Shit. I was afraid someone would say that. Alright give me a little while to scrounge up some source info.
    --- Post Added -- Apr 23, 2015, ---
    Ok well here's a good place to start:

    http://climate.nasa.gov/

    I'll just try and hit some of the broader points for the sake of brevity. I can expand upon these points if necessary.

    - Greenhouse Gases - these include water vapor, carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide, and methane. Humans have increased atmospheric CO2 levels through industrialization and the rise of the automobile, nitrous oxide through the use of fertilizers and soil cultivation practices, and methane through maintenance of livestock. So basically, solar energy comes through the atmosphere (some does anyway), hits the earth's surface, radiates back towards space, and some is trapped and again reflected to the earth's surface by these gases. Increasing the amount of these gases in the atmosphere leads to more heat trapping, aka more intense greenhouse effect. It's a simplification, but that's it in a nutshell.

    - Ocean Currents - The ocean absorbs much more heat energy than land, and is crucial in maintenance of Earth's climate. The ocean's currents are guided by clines. The thermocline (heat) and halocline (salt) are the major players. Increasing the heat of the ocean has the potential to directly alter the thermocline. Furthermore, melting ice caps and glaciers (which are fresh water, since salt is excluded from freezing saltwater) have the effect of diluting the ocean, and even a small-scale dilution can have some serious effects on the halocline. So if thermoclines and haloclines both change, ocean currents may change as well. And that could lead to some wild changes in regional climates.
    --- Post Added -- Apr 23, 2015, ---
    - Ocean Acidification - This one is near and dear to my heart since I am a self-proclaimed coral reef expert. If you increase a gas within one phase of a closed system (and the Earth is essentially a closed system) that contains both a gas and liquid phase, a new equilibrium will be reached so long as one phase is not saturated. That is, increasing the CO2 content of the gas phase of Earth (the air) increases the CO2 content of the liquid phase. CO2 dissolves in water and acidifies it. A big problem with this is the damage this would cause to ocean life, particularly coral reefs. Corals build their skeletons out of calcium carbonate. This material is formed by the combination of a calcium ion (Ca^2+) with a carbonate ion (CO3^2-). A dissolved CO2 molecule can complex with a water molecule and a carbonate ion to form two bicarbonate (HCO3-) ions. Stressed corals expel their symbiotic zooxanthellae, the algae that gives them their color and photosynthesizes to provide them with energy, and are therefore more likely to die. Destruction of coral reefs could lead to an absolutely MASSIVE extinction event which could have far-reaching implications.

    - Increasing Ocean Surface Temperatures - I'll just keep this one short and sweet. Plankton prefer cooler waters for breeding. In some parts of the ocean, the population of certain types of plankton has dropped by as much as 80%. Since they are at the very bottom of the food chain, this could lead to another catastrophic mass extinction including popular commercial fish species.

    - Extreme Weather Events - This is the part that makes people say "Ohhh well global warming can't be real because it's currently snowing really hard where I live." Precipitation is largely mediated by oceanic activity. Decreasing the salinity of water leads to water being more easily evaporated (try boiling fresh water and then do the same with salt water, record results). The atmospheric water vapor is a pretty good self-regulatory mechanism. The more water vapor in the air, the more likely precipitation is to occur. Warmer air can hold more water. That's why heat (unless you fucking live in Texas or something) generally feels humid and cold feels dry. It's also why liquid condenses overnight and is witnessed as morning dew, which is then reabsorbed as the day goes on. More water in the air means more potential for heavy precipitation. In warmer months, this could mean floods. In colder months, massive blizzards. The east coast could speak to that based on this winter. Hell, being in Chicago this winter I could speak to that. Changing regional climates as a result of the changes in things like ocean currents and greenhouse effect can lead to different levels of precipitation. See: California drought.
    --- Post Added -- Apr 23, 2015, ---
    - Sea Level Rise - In addition to melting glaciers and ice caps, water expands when it warms (it also expands when it freezes, allowing its solid form to float in its liquid form, a unique property of water that is great news if you are a fish). Increased volume and increased dimensions of the water particles themselves is just going to cause sea levels to rise. That is an inevitable fact. A result of this if it becomes severe enough is that many coastal cities could end up becoming swamps, and certain islands could be swallowed completely. The economic implications of this are huge, and many people could become displaced and/or homeless.
    --- Post Added -- Apr 23, 2015, ---
    And here come the graphs.

    We'll start broad.

    [​IMG]

    Then move in closer.

    Gases.jpg

    And closer.

    co2.png

    Then there's temperature:

    [​IMG]

    Global temperature anomaly.png

    And the fact that 2014 was the hottest year on record:

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/2014-officially-hottest-year-on-record/

    And that 9 out of the 10 hottest years ever recorded have been since 2000. The other one? 1998. The last 38 years in a row have been above the century average.

    http://www.climatecentral.org/gallery/graphics/10-warmest-years-globally
    --- Post Added -- Apr 23, 2015, ---
    So yeah that's the brief version, and certainly not all-encompassing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2015
    kanobro, Poindexter, ILJO and 2 others like this.
  9. Hassquatch

    Hassquatch Slayer

    Reputation:
    29,554,564
    How did they measure C02 etc levels in 1750?

    I'm pretty sure this is one those things that if you ignore it, it will go away. Just like women.
     
    Trodden likes this.
  10. Ct_L33T

    Ct_L33T Well-Known Member

    Reputation:
    27,174,970
    CO2 levels are generally measured by ice core readings. By measuring the average concentration of CO2 trapped in ice cores, you can estimate the general concentration of gasses during that time period.

    Climate and weather are related, but not the same. The scariest thing about climate change is that ecosystems operate on a positive feedback loop. We release carbon and heat traping polition into the atmosphere, causing oceans to acidify and permafrost to thaw. Resulting in more methane being released from the frozen earth and wildlife changing their migration habits.
     
  11. Trodden

    Trodden The autumn air Thickly fills my lungs So sweetly

    Reputation:
    231,833,865
    either way, Im going to learn to breathe underwater
     
  12. Neganomics

    Neganomics I know nothing.

    Reputation:
    38,005,031
    Great question. And damn Ct beat me to it. Oh well. Yeah ice cores. But also tree rings and coral rings.

    False. On both accounts.

    With exponential population growth and the increased demand this creates from industry and agriculture, as well as the increasing number of automobiles on the road (more obvious in Chicago, where I currently live, than in other areas most likely), this problem is only going to get worse. Plus the things causing the damage are so deeply entrenched in society at this point that it would take a dramatic shift in culture to slow the process.

    It can totally be done, but there are too many big interests preventing it from happening. Why do you think it has become such a politicized debate in America, specifically? Citizens United. Citizens United is why it has become such a politicized debate in America, specifically.
     
  13. Hassquatch

    Hassquatch Slayer

    Reputation:
    29,554,564
    So those readings from the 1700's are really accurate.

    Hopefully its a natural climate change that continues to change back and forth. While the charts are obviously alarming, hopefully the results they show are more indicative of testing methods.

    You dumb fucking humans couldn't learn the one fucking thing that causes all of the fucking problems in the world. Overpopulation. Use a fucking condom and/or learn how to pull the fuck out. Pre-cum barely gets anyone pregnant so don't go blaming those iddy-biddy swimmers. Fuck off every religious preacher there ever was. The worst part of it is, the dumbest people are the ones that keep over-breeding. You can afford condoms if you cancel your data plan. Get snipped you assholes!
    --- Post Added -- Apr 23, 2015, ---
    Solution: Anal Sex
     
    Trodden likes this.
  14. kanobro

    kanobro My New Challenge Site Donor

    Reputation:
    196,387,393
    thanks for the info @Nate_Deezy . the last time I looked at this a little, The big thing was a hole in the ozone layer. I may be a little out of touch with this issue. What happened with that situation.
     
  15. PatsWillPoundMyProlapsedChin

    PatsWillPoundMyProlapsedChin Well-Known Member Site Donor

    Reputation:
    35,383,021
    I have no idea who's right or wrong on this issue. I do know these assholes with smoke stacks running out the back of their truck are imbeciles who should have their licenses revoked.

    My question is this: haven't we gone through similar climate changes in the past? What about the Ice Age? What caused that to end and how is the Earth warming now any different than that?
     
    TriangleSmoke likes this.
  16. Neganomics

    Neganomics I know nothing.

    Reputation:
    38,005,031
    Yes, sir. And that is due to our ability to both figure out what the equilibrium point for the atmosphere must have been based on the dissolved CO2 in the ice itself, and also the direct collection of air from bubbles in this ice.

    I'll respond to both of these at the same time, first with this graph from NASA:

    NASA_CO2.jpg

    The science of ice ages is actually pretty complicated. If I'm going to go into that, it will have to be next week after I finish my neuro exam. Because I don't want to give any type of inaccuracy or misrepresentation by trying to gloss over the subject.

    And yes, the Earth has gone through changes in the past. But those changes weren't NEARLY as drastic, and we also didn't have the ability to measure and/or potentially manipulate the climate. The difference between now and then is that we have identified the problem and are just fucking ignoring it.

    Solar energy is abundant enough to completely replace fossil fuels. Globally. But fossil fuel companies stand to lose too much money in that deal. So they are muddying the waters of the issue by funneling enormous amounts of campaign funds into politicians who say what they want them to, thereby confusing the population and getting them to vote against their own interests. Realistically, if this is allowed to continue at the pace that it is going, the effects of this are going to be 1) widespread extinction of species who can't control the environment, followed by 2) the gradual but inevitable extinction of the species that could have done something but didn't.

    I actually appreciate the rant lol. But it's also due to global development and industrialization in addition to overpopulation itself.

    The scientists. The scientists are right. That's what the default should always be. I think there's this idea that scientists are just running around, thinking up outlandish explanations to all of the world's phenomena, when in actuality it is a much, much more complicated process. The mathematical models explaining black hole physics, for example, is something I will not be able to wrap my mind around in my lifetime.
    --- Post Added -- Apr 23, 2015, ---
    Also demonstrated by the popular lack of understanding of climate science is the inadequacy of news media. John Oliver did an absolutely brilliant piece on climate change a while back where he pointed out how news outlets always have one "pro-climate science" and one "anti-climate science" person debating, but in reality it's something like 97% of scientists who acknowledge climate change as a result of human influences. So he staged a mock debate between one anti-climate change scientist and Bill Nye, accompanied by like 96 other pro-climate change scientists. Here's the video if you want to check it out:

     
    Poindexter likes this.
  17. Poindexter

    Poindexter Reputation: ∞ Staff Member

    Reputation:
    281,595,238
    The causal role of industrialization in this change would be hard to overestimate.
     
    Nate_Deezy likes this.
  18. ILJO

    ILJO Mississippi Girl Site Donor

    Reputation:
    120,333,538
    Please tell me you have something better than 'hopefully this and hopefully that' to support your dissent. No amount of hoping will make the slightest bit of difference. Being wrong about this could have grave consequences, so it's wholly irresponsible to adopt the mentality that as long as there remains a doubt (which you seem overconfident in for reasons unknown) that you can continue to assume it's bullshit.

    Even if it is bullshit, there's so much evidence pointing to the contrary that there's a general consensus among most people that are smarter than you in this world that we have to stop fucking around. No offense, but how stupid do you have to be to think you're smart enough to go against that grain? I don't know shit either, and I'm a skeptical person too, but you won't see me pretending like I know well enough to call bullshit, because I'm willing to accept that no matter how many slanted documentaries I watch, I'm still a fucking idiot that's relatively uninformed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2015
    Poindexter likes this.
  19. Neganomics

    Neganomics I know nothing.

    Reputation:
    38,005,031
    @Hassquatch I just want you to know that I disagree with the tone of this post ^^^.

    To me, you have demonstrated a willingness to entertain the information I have presented and I hope you found it helpful in adding to your knowledge on the subject.
    --- Post Added -- Apr 23, 2015, ---
    The idea of a hole in the ozone layer is actually misleading. There's not really a "hole" they are concerned about. It's more of a depletion. And this is caused by halocarbons (molecules containing carbon, hydrogen, and a halogen, particularly chlorine and fluorine) breaking down the molecule ozone (which is just 3 oxygen molecules bound together) in our atmosphere. A big source of these halocarbons is aerosol products. But that has largely come under control because of what ozone does. It filters out harmful UV-B rays that cause sunburn and can lead to skin cancer. And people are nothing if not vain. So if they have to stop using aerosol products in order to be able to still get that glorious bronze, then that's cool with them. So largely that's what has happened. Coolants such as Freon are still a big problem, but I believe they're working on phasing halocarbons out of those too.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2015
    kanobro and Trodden like this.
  20. ILJO

    ILJO Mississippi Girl Site Donor

    Reputation:
    120,333,538
    Perhaps I was a bit condescending. But perhaps you were too understanding. We view things differently. I don't know if I believe he has a willingness to entertain the information, not objectively anyway. He's a full grown adult who came out of the gate with "I don't believe." Not that he wasn't sure or that he's not convinced, but that he thinks it's not real.

    Then when you spent the time to put together a very educational/informative post, the only thing he brings up is something he can doubt/dispute. Then you resolve that issue and he moves on to just "hoping" that it's bullshit. Do not mistake his politeness and non-confrontational attitude to mean he was receptive of what you presented. I saw classic rationalization/avoidance, clinging to current beliefs and looking for ways to reject yours.

    I don't believe kindly presenting information is always the right approach. I do not expect people to see passed their own subconscious tendencies. Sometimes you have to make it abundantly clear with the addition of negative feedback before people make the effort to see things as if they are wrong/they don't know what's right. Before there's a conscious admittance/acceptance/thought of "I'm wrong here, so let me learn what's right," information is not processed the same way. It takes an understanding of our inherent flaws and subconscious tendencies to be open minded. Otherwise it takes incontrovertible evidence that one cannot rationalize away to change someone's mind... or (I believe) a negative connection to the belief caused by the consequences of holding it, which can inspire people (albeit through negativity) to have enough doubt/uncertainty to see things from a more objective perspective that's open to change.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2015

Share This Page