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How Would You Fix MMA?

Discussion in 'MMA University' started by ILJO, Mar 19, 2015.

?

Does MMA need to change?

  1. Everything's fine, stop whining.

    29.6%
  2. This shit is broken, yo! (explain)

    70.4%
  1. thumper

    thumper all around great guy Staff Member

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    i honestly never thought about your point, but that's a good one. No winner of a round should be possible. the must is a bad idea.

    man it's a tough thing to fix.

    I think getting better judges is the only way to fix it right now. they are not going to abandon that 10 point system. at least i don't think so, so the only way i see it is to have the judges be forced to prove their worth by testing. using fights to test their judging, being reviewed and questioned about why they score the way they do, and be certified by a valid INDEPENDENT board. the independent part is critical to it working. they cannot be governed by the same body or they'd feel pressure

    then, the other thing that could greatly help is monitors for judges, and better yet, reviews of key aspects between rounds, though I'm not sure how to implement it. you wouldn't want to stop a fight to review something, but there has to be a way to do reviews. just allowing complete mistakes which don't even allow them to change their minds, with no replays is just antiquated and makes no sense.

    This issue, barring something like a complete revamp of the scoring system which would be a very long process, is not going to get fixed any time soon.

    The sad part is they could immediately remedy much of it by firing known bad judges and bringing in qualified personnel. MMA has proven it's valid and big enough to warrant a change from boxing.
     
  2. ʞɔɐqbuıɯoɔsısoɐɥɔ

    ʞɔɐqbuıɯoɔsısoɐɥɔ Just the Messenger

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    Here's the thing, most judges are "trained". Evey fight I've covered there has been at least 1, if not multiple "ghost judges" that were there training and learning scoring to discuss their scores after the event.

    The biggest problem, and I think most people will agree, is the scoring structure. You don't what that particular judge is looking for from a round-by-round basis. Let's go to the theoretical fight on paper.....

    The Judges:
    Judge 1 is a veteran judge with over 100 MMA events and 200 boxing events under his belt
    Judge 2 is experienced doing both MMA and Boxing having judged over 40 events each
    Judge 3 is just coming into his own and this is his 15th MMA event, and he's done fewer Boxing events than MMA

    The Fight:
    Clay Quida vs Jim Miller

    The Variables:
    Judge 1 has done 5 Guida fights and 3 Miller and knows what both fighters are all about
    Judge 2 vaguely remembers doing "that long haired guy's" fight about 4 years ago
    Judge 3 has never seen either guy fight and was told before the event by Judge 1 that Guida is a wrestler that likes to press the action

    Round 1:
    Guida presses Miller into the cage and works for takedowns. Most of which are stuffed and Miller lands a some short punches o the ribs while defending. Guida gets a takedown with about minute left and stays on top the rest of the round, landing nothing, but never advancing position. Meanwhile Miller landed several elbows the bloodied Guida's nose while on his back. Stand up excahnges were basically even.
    Judge 1 scores the round 10-9 Guida based on aggression and octagon control
    Judge 2 sees that Miller landed the more shots and a stayed busier even though he wasn't the one in positional control
    Judge 3 scores the round for Guida based solely on Guida's aggression
    No 10-Point Must: scores the round even 9-9 as neither proved to be the dominant factor

    Round 2:
    Guida presses into the cage again ad gets an early takedown to which Miller pops right back up. Miller lands a few leg kicks and vicious uppercut, forcing Guida to dive for a takedown. Miller again defends. Guida lands 5 slapping leg kicks and pumps off 20 jabs, landing maybe 4 of them. Guida again presses Miller into the cage ad finally gets the takedown. Guida stays in control for about 45 seconds until he tries to transition to side control, where Miller scrambles out and takes Guida's back. Guida defends a rear-naked for the last 20 seconds of the round.
    Judge 1 scores the round 10-9 Guida based on aggression and octagon control
    Judge 2 sees that Miller landed the more shots and a stayed busier even though he wasn't the one in positional control for most of the round
    Judge 3 scores the round for Guida based solely on Guida's aggression
    No 10-Point Must: scores the round 10-9 for Miller based on overall effectiveness and agression because he attempted to "win the fight"

    Round 3:
    Miller decks Guida with an uppercut and knocks him down. Guida turtles up and gets pounded on for 20-30 seconds, nothing gets through, but he is doing nothing but riding out the storm. Miller gases and Guida gets back to his feet securing an easy takedwon .Miller teis him in the guard and the two get stood up after close to a minute in a stalemate. Guida shoots agai nand again gets an easy takedown. Miller rolls and gives up his back. Guida sets the hooks, but cannot gets his arms free to try and sink in a choke. Miller worms free and their back on their feet for the final 30 seconds. Miller lands several hard rights, to Guida's popping jabs. The round / fight ends.
    Judge 1 scores the round 10-9 Guida based on aggression and octagon control
    Judge 2 sees that Miller landed the more shots and a stayed busier even though he wasn't the one in positional control for most of the round
    Judge 3 scores the round for Guida based solely on Guida's aggression
    No 10-Point Must: scores the round 10-9 for Miller based on overall effectiveness and agression because he attempted to "win the fight"

    Total scores:
    Judge 1 scores the bout 30-27 Guida
    Judge 2 scores the bout 30-27 Miller
    Judge 3 scores the bout 30-27 Guida
    Judge No 10-Point Must scores the bout 29-27 Miller

    No judge was wrong based on their reasoning for scoring, but you can see how scores can be misleading based on what a judge is already prealligned in a fight to look for or what scoring aspct takes greater weight than another in their minds.
     
    MacEwen and Malevolence like this.
  3. thumper

    thumper all around great guy Staff Member

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    I agree with you that scoring is huge. But i think it's maybe 35% of the problem. i think judges making bad calls is 65% of it. Your example is correct. but more often than not it's bad calls. at best it's 50/50

    but i think the path of least resistance would be those things I mentioned. I agree changing scoring would help tremendously, but it's the least likely part to happen i think.

    FYI God Damned good to see you.
     
  4. ILJO

    ILJO Mississippi Girl Site Donor

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    I wasn't trying to shit on your ideas. I said I liked it. In theory I might agree that it's a better way to score fights (if used properly). I just don't think it could be implemented well. Even if I 100% agree that it's better, I still 100% believe that it would have an overall worse outcome if the switch was made.

    So imo that wouldn't exactly be fixing things. I'm sorry if that offends you, but I was just trying to be practical. It was more of a knock on the commission/judges and the current state of affairs, if anything. If you agree but just like talking about your system, then by all means go ahead and continue. If you disagree, then you have yet to explain how I was wrong.

    If you are adding more ways to score each round, then you are increasing the chance of inconsistency. That is not an opinion. It gives the judges more ways to score rounds. Like I said, without more thoroughly defining the criteria for how to score, then it becomes more subjective. And if you are making the criteria more thorough, it is by definition more complex.

    If it becomes more subjective (i.e. opinion based), you are more heavily relying on the judges to know their shit. If it becomes more complex, then that makes it more difficult to understand and utilize properly, requiring more skill.

    In either case (or anywhere in between), I don't see how this doesn't require better judges. What's bullshit about that?

    10-10 is a score that is already available in the 10 point must system. It is heavily underutilized, and I'm a big proponent of it. There is no need to switch to another system to have a draw round.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2015
  5. Dirty

    Dirty fuck you!

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    Lister, Horn and Burkman score every fight.
     
  6. KevoIsAPoopyHead

    KevoIsAPoopyHead SMOKE BOMB!

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    Which would be a lot better then the current judges Dewey, Cheatem and Howe
     
    kanobro likes this.
  7. Trodden

    Trodden The autumn air Thickly fills my lungs So sweetly

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    if they cant fix the judges and scoring issues, nothing in MMA will probably every get better
     
  8. sourdough

    sourdough Sourdough Site Donor Asst. Bookie

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    Retired fighters* becoming MMA fighters is definitely the right step to fix judging. With that commissions are going to have to be more careful of judges having links to the fighters.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2015
    Malevolence likes this.
  9. thumper

    thumper all around great guy Staff Member

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    pretty sure you said that backwards, but you're right.
     
  10. sourdough

    sourdough Sourdough Site Donor Asst. Bookie

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    meant retired fighters
     
  11. ʞɔɐqbuıɯoɔsısoɐɥɔ

    ʞɔɐqbuıɯoɔsısoɐɥɔ Just the Messenger

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    ILJO,
    Where we're not seeing eye-to-eye is that you're putting the weight of bad scoring on the judges being untrained and uninformed. Which, in some cases is true. However, most MMA judges are actually very astute and understanding of the different techniques and scoring options. Putting the negative onus all on the "human element" is easy. The human element is an intended variable. You're seeking a change in variable without changing the constants around the variables. To which, we'll still get variable results.

    In general, I'm not even trying to say that scrapping the 10-point must system is the only, or best, way to change MMA or even the scoring problems. However, it is a solution. And the truth to my argument is that I am only seeking a redefinition of the 10-point must system. Removing the wording that predominantly states that a winner must be declared per round.
    I even left that last caveat in there to show that its in the rules, but the fact that rule suggests that a round winner must be declared makes for some potentially scewed scores because most judges adhere to the idea that a winner must be declared.

    Having sat beside judges during fights and talking with them as they scored contests I can definitely tell you, they will agonize over who actually won a round just to declare a winner rather than calling the round a draw.
     
  12. ILJO

    ILJO Mississippi Girl Site Donor

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    I don't see how that's not their fault. "Except for an even round, which is scored 10-10" couldn't possibly be any more clear. It's an error in thought/teaching, not in the definitions/criteria, that make them "agonize over who actually won a round."
     
  13. Poindexter

    Poindexter Reputation: ∞ Staff Member

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    Unfortunately, I think the McGregor Effect will be a net loss for the sport.
     
    Trodden likes this.
  14. Trodden

    Trodden The autumn air Thickly fills my lungs So sweetly

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    still the best idea here
     
  15. Poindexter

    Poindexter Reputation: ∞ Staff Member

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    UFC "Get Well Plan" from a fan
     
    disposableassassin likes this.
  16. disposableassassin

    disposableassassin Tainted supplement distributor Site Donor

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    Yeah. That's what I would do.
     
    Poindexter likes this.
  17. Cat--Smasher

    Cat--Smasher Putting the stamp on kids Staff Member Survival Pool Champion

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    Giving fighters longer to make weight aka reducing weight cut recovery time would be a mistake.
     
  18. Afro

    Afro The Autumn Wind is a Raider

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    I would fix it to have only my favorite fighters win
     

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